"I Told You So," Said The Attorney

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 08/29/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None

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I wrote a piece a while back about selling cars and how you need to make sure the buyer retitles the car in his or her name. Several people chimed in saying California has an online process where you tell the state you sold your car so that takes care of it. WRONG!

Buying and selling cars is often fraught with peril when individuals are on both sides of the sale. This is because most people buy or sell cars so seldomly they do not take all the steps necessary to protect themselves. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that a seller really needs to make sure that the buyer retitles the car in his or her name. This, because I have spoken with many people who sold cars and the buyers did not do this. Instead, they went out and got into accidents or abandoned the cars - and liability was traced back to the seller, not the buyer (who was not listed with the state).

I suggested you accompany the buyer to the DMV (or equivalent) and watch as the new title is applied for. People laughed at me. Oh, how they laughed.

Many pointed out that CA has a process whereby a seller can go online and notify the state of the sale. Commenters told me, “Ipso facto, I am then safe.” Um, safe from what? What IF the buyer does not follow through and goes and does something bad?

Why does everyone believe everything will work out? Why do people not believe the kindly attorney handing out free advice (which is not to be taken as “legal” advice, per the disclaimer below)? I’ve even covered it in a podcast, in case this reading thing was too much for you.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I got correspondence from someone in CA this past week. He had sold a car. He went and did that online thing with the state. The buyer did not follow through and got in an accident. The victim of the accident sued the driver (buyer) of the car and sued him, the seller, who still showed up in the title history as the last properly titled owner of the vehicle.

Will this seller escape the lawsuit without having to pay? I hope so. Did the online thing save him? Not completely. How could he have avoided this? He could have done what I described in my article. (In fairness, his car sale took place before my article was posted but still - you get the point.)

There you have it. If you really trust your fellow man (who is a stranger), leave him to his own devices and hope he does the right thing. If you are skeptical, go to the DMV and get it done right. After all, I have now told you so - twice.

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

Agrajag > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 09:09

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I’m not sure if it’s the law in PA, but I’ve never bought or sold a car privately where both parties were not present in front of a notary during the title transfer. Seems dumb to just hand over a title and just wish them well.

SteveLehto > Agrajag 08/29/2015 at 09:17

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Why not do it at the DMV? Have them apply for a title in front of you. that way, you’re both protected.

Funktheduck > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 09:22

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Back when I was in high school a guy bought a car from a friend, didn’t get the title transferred, tag was still in former owners name on the car, and proceeded to treat the car like he stole it. Managed to get a few red light camera tickets on the only red light camera around and didn’t bother paying any parking meters so got many parking tickets in a few weeks.

His thinking was that the car was sold but not registered so it didn’t belong to anyone and he had 30 days to do whatever he wanted before being legally required to register. He wasn’t trying to screw his friend; he was trying to screw the system. All was well until the seller got tickets in the mail. I think his mom paid all the stuff in the end.

SteveLehto > Funktheduck 08/29/2015 at 09:24

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I hear all kinds of stories like that. Sometimes, you can straighten that stuff out but why open yourself up to it in the first place?

Thanks for the note.

Agrajag > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 09:25

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Of course. I should’ve added that it would be a notary at the DMV or title transfer place.

SteveLehto > Agrajag 08/29/2015 at 09:29

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Oh, that makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, all a notary amounts to is a person who verifies that signatories are who they claim to be.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 10:20

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What about the buying/selling of parts cars? I just picked one up and would have transferred titles but the seller didn’t have it. The story is the seller bought it for parts, and didn’t have time to pull them before his landlord made him get rid of it, but he never got the papers when he bought it. I did get him to write up a bill of sale with his driver’s license number on it, but what happens when I move the vehicle on to its next home (probably a scrap yard...)?

SteveLehto > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 08/29/2015 at 10:22

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And what if someone reports it stolen? I hate to be paranoid but that is part of my job.

At the very least, I’d run a title search with the DMV to see who its listed owner is/was.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 10:35

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When I sold my last car in California there was a piece on the bottom of the title that you can tear off and mail in to the DMV that notifies them of the sale and change of ownership. I sold my car to a tweaker so I thought I was doing the right thing. I’m pretty sure he didn’t register or insure the car. Just drove it to the ground in 6 months.

Fiveohfour > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 10:41

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I’m dumbfounded, nay befuddled, that people would actually hand over their car without going to a notary at a title transfer place or at the DMV of offered there

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 10:46

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Yeah, I’ll have to do that I guess. I hope the car’s actually mine... I’ve already pulled the drivetrain and dropped it into my project. I don’t really want to put it back in the donor... But I guess I should have checked first.

SteveLehto > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/29/2015 at 10:58

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That’s what this guy did. Still got sued.

CrankyOldMan > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:09

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Washington State DMV says that filing a report of sale says it specifically protects you from civil and criminal liability of new owner.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistr…

kyle242gt > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:12

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Ca resident here - have bought and sold ... jeeze ... at least 40 cars over the last 25 years. All private party, because I’m nobody’s sucker. At least not yet. Nice used cars aren’t that much cheaper than new, but I digress.

Only once have I transferred title in person, and that was only because the seller didn’t have the title and I wanted to be sure there was no funny business with the application for duplicate title. Doing this at AAA was a snap. Frankly I may do my transfers there in the future, but only because articles like this are scary.

Only once has a buyer failed to register the new car, and that was a $600 Maxima with 250K miles on it sold in a seedy part of town. We were alerted by a parking ticket, and responded “car sold such and such a date” and never heard another peep.

A bill of sale (which I only rarely bother with) and a release of liability (edit, along with email history from craigslist, because let’s be honest, how else do you plan on a private party sale these days) has got to be prima facie evidence of the transfer taking place. I doubt that’s the right term, I’m an accountant, not a lawyer.

I think the bigger issue here is someone (likely a victim’s greedy contingency lawyer or an insurance company’s in-house-automaton ) took a case suing someone just because they could. I suspect the seller had deeper pockets (and maybe even a driver’s license and insurance of his own) than the buyer.

SteveLehto > CrankyOldMan 08/29/2015 at 11:13

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And what happens when they don’t record it on the buyer’s end and you get sued?

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:13

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That would be unworkable in Washington State (going to the DOL to transfer). However, in Washington if you don’t notify the DOL of the transfer of ownership, the law clearly makes you (the seller) liable for bad-acts committed. With that said, the on-line notification to DOL is adequate to protect you from such (provided you completely fill out the form).

Now, with that said. One of the ways you can be liable is for parking tickets or if the car is towed. Washington makes the registered owner liable for tow costs if the car is towed. Thus, if you sell a car and it gets towed out of a canyon - you could be on the hook for thousands. The caveat, again, is simply filling out the form at DOL.WA.GOV

I lived in Oregon prior to law school and owned a pretty cool S10 blazer. It was lifted, had a V8 and lots of custom touches. I’d bought it after some redneck-engineering had occurred (e.g. all wires were replaced with sections of red ones), I fixed the issues and sold the car to a dealer. The dealer sold the car to a friend, and didn’t transfer the title and this friend lived in Washington. I got a letter from a tow company almost a year after sale telling me that the car had been towed and I was on the hook for the tow bill. I immediately called the tow company and said “great, I’ll come pick it up.” The tow person paused, then said, but the car is already gone - the owner picked it up. I said, “you know that I’m the owner, why did you let someone else pick up my car?” After a conversation which included notifying the police that the tow company had released the car to a non-owner, I was paid by the tow company for their gaffe and I dropped the charges. I relate that story to everyone I sell a car to (I sell decent cars, I only buy junk) that if they fail to transfer the title, that I will pick up the car and they can buy it from me again. I’ve not had any problem.

SteveLehto > kyle242gt 08/29/2015 at 11:14

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But my point is that even if you will win (which you probably will), there is a cost (money and hassle) involved in getting sued.

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon 08/29/2015 at 11:15

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Why would it be unworkable? They don’t allow in-person title transfer applications?

mrbwa1 > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:21

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Thanks for the follow up. All my Idaho titles have a “ Release of Liability Statement” that you mail in when you sign the title over to a new owner. Sounds like you are all good, but the bottom reads:

I hearby twist that the ITD Mark it’s records to show the vehicle described above has been transferred. I understand that the title record will remain in my name until a new idaho certificate off title is applied for and issued on the name(s) of the new owner. “

So even if you sign the liability release and send it in, it’s still your legal vehicle until the seller registers it.

Then again, license plates belong to the person here, so if I sell, I get to keep the plate and Tanner it to another vehicle, so kinda have to go to the DMV...

Urambo Tauro > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:33

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A few years, back I was looking at local ads and a 1998 Mustang GT caught my eye. It had what I was looking for, and was the right price. But the ad went on to say that the seller would not be able to supply a title for it, because for whatever reason, it just happened to be in someone else’s name, who was out of the country on deployment... blah, blah, blah.

That was a red flag, and for me, a deal-breaker. I didn’t go to look at the car in person, or even bother to contact the seller. If the car is legitimately yours, your paperwork needs to be in order. I don’t care if you have to mail it to Iraq and back. And don’t tell me that I, as a buyer, can get a title easily myself. If it’s so easy, you do it before you go to sell the car.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 11:45

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They’re run by private companies - so their hours, ability to handle transactions, and overall competence are severely compromised. How bad could it be, you ask. It generally takes at least 3 trips to the DOL to get a title transferred, they’re all closed on Monday, then add that it takes at least an hour to go 20 miles in any direction in Seattle, then, perhaps buy the car in Tacoma (which is 60 miles away).... there is one DOL (Kirkland) where there is competence. There is at least an hour wait time (go figure, huh?) and several hours during their high-volume times (end of the month). Fortunately tags and everything else can be done online or I’d have no speeding tickets and a drawer full of “unregistered car” violations.

I’ll add this - I have a direct phone number to the State liaison to these independent tramps. Usually, after doing the footwork, I can get her to come down on the DOL. I provide this as a public service announcement - Avoid Woodinville DOL at all costs, their level of incompetence is legendary.

CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 12:09

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A little FYI, DMV in CA is a horrible place. Go to AAA. They can do it for you if you have a membership...

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 12:55

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WA person here. As the seller, you can submit to the DMV a bill of sale that is literally torn from the state title. You submit the vin, date of sale, and all the seller’s information including their drivers license number. They then clear you of ownership and enter the information of the buyer. This is also why I thoroughly inspect a buyer’s ID to make sure it’s on the up and up. Then, you are allegedly cleared and the clock starts ticking on the new owner, as they only have maybe 5 days to register the vehicle to before facing potential penalties. Basically the BOS is supposed to cover the seller if the buyer decides to drag his feet, or flip the car, and not transfer the title.

SteveLehto > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 08/29/2015 at 12:57

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But California’s is supposed to operate the same way. The question is what happens if the buyer does not do what he/she ought to and - for example - gets in an accident with the car?

Then again, I’ve heard that WA is odd since the offices are privately run? Who know what you guys can do about that.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 13:10

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From our state DOL:

“Whenever you sell or give up ownership of a vehicle (including cars, trucks, motorcycles, registered off-road vehicles, and trailers), file a report of sale so you’re not held liable for any tolling bills, towing charges, or civil and criminal liabilities incurred by the new owner”

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistr…

SteveLehto > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 08/29/2015 at 13:17

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Again though, what happens if you get sued? You might win but its still a hassle.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 13:24

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But you can pretty much try to sue anyone... I was once sued by a family that rear ended me full speed. The point is that the BOS is supposed to protect you from criminal and personal liabilities but you can’t really stop people from suing for anything. Yes you will have to fight it but at least you’ll have something to wave back in their face (legal proof of sale).

SteveLehto > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 08/29/2015 at 13:32

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But if you have a fully transferred title it is an easier defense.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 13:41

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If the title is fully transferred then no one would even think to sue you though right?

SteveLehto > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 08/29/2015 at 13:45

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Yes. I have no idea what happens in WA but I have seen lasuits in other states on this.

LongTravel > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 14:11

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Will a signed and notarized bill of sale get you off the hook?

SteveLehto > LongTravel 08/29/2015 at 14:28

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It would help.

Milesz > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 15:28

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In Belgium, when you sell your car to another individual, it goes like this:

The seller takes his car to a DMV-like place for a roadworthiness test. If the car passes, the seller gets a document that the buyer needs.

The seller and buyer do their transaction. Seller gives buyer the DMV-document.

Seller removes his number plates (plates stay with the person, not the car).

Buyer asks new plates or transfer of his plates with the DMV-document.

There isn’t much that can go wrong in this process, I think, especially because the seller keeps his plates. If he re-uses them on his next car, the DMV knows. If he doesn’t, he has to send them back and the DMV knows as well. So even if the buyer makes false plates, the DMV will know the seller can’t be linked to that car any more.

Also, could I be ungreyed?

smobgirl > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 15:35

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Maybe I’m ignorant (or not thinking straight, after running 18 miles my brain stops working), but the process in Colorado seems weirdly loophole-ish. You basically only register plates? When my old car died, I transferred the plates to my new car and the old one was then unregistered. I sold the old car a few months later, and since it didn’t run the new owner obviously wasn’t ready to plate it unless he could fix it (since plates require insurance and emissions first). Thankfully he lives next door so I just kept an eye out and he temp-tagged the car once it was running but the process seemed much fishier than in VA. I didn’t see any way to notify anyone that I had sold it besides holding a copy of the bill of sale and the DMV just laughed when I called to ask. Maybe I missed something.

SteveLehto > smobgirl 08/29/2015 at 15:42

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Are there no car titles in Colorado?

Actually, there are:

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dmv/ti…

MonsieurOblong > Fiveohfour 08/29/2015 at 15:43

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You’re befuddled as to why people don’t take what was (previously) viewed as unnecessary trip to the DMV?

smobgirl > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 17:38

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Sorry. Blood sugar stabilized now. What I was trying to get at was that no one at the DMV seemed to understand how to transfer the title without also registering the car, which makes no sense since I’m sure people sell inoperable vehicles all the time. And obviously there are plenty of titled things that wouldn't be plate-able, like track cars. They just kept saying to keep a copy of the bill of sale and it would be fine, there was no need for me to notify anyone.

I quit trying to figure it out because I never expected the car to run again and the buyer doesn’t speak any English. The car is now registered to his daughter. I wish I could ask him what was wrong with it because my mechanic completely gave up on it.

SteveLehto > smobgirl 08/29/2015 at 18:09

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But whois it titled to?

smobgirl > SteveLehto 08/29/2015 at 18:26

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All I can tell you is “not me!” (I called to check after I saw plates on it)

My bigger worry at this point is the guy whose plates are registered to my address who hasn’t lived here for at least 10 years (or maybe ever?). He owes a lot of money in radar camera tickets and toll fees.

Tohru > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 02:23

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Steve, you’re a good person and a good writer - presumably you’re a good lawyer as well. However, this is one time where I find disagreement with you.

The nearest WI DMV location that handles vehicle titling is 50+ miles away from me.

I have never, ever, ever went to the DMV to transfer title, as a buyer OR a seller. I don’t know anyone who ever has. I’ve owned 22 vehicles, 18 of which were purchased private-party. I’ve sold 16 of them private party, and scrapped 3 of them.

I will admit I have had one issue in all this time. The gentlemen I sold my ‘76 Delta 88 to put the plates from a 2004 Kia onto it and was driving it around Milwaukee for close to 6 months before he parked illegally and got it towed. The towing company contacted me (since I was last owner on record) about the storage fees (~$1000). I sent them a copy of my bill of sale from selling it, and never heard back.

Tohru > Urambo Tauro 08/30/2015 at 02:24

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No title, no sale. End of story.

SteveLehto > Tohru 08/30/2015 at 09:10

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You got lucky. But people are free to disregard my advice. My point is that there are ways to REALLY protect yourself. Most people don’t do it and once in a while they get smacked.

staghounds > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 12:26

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Have you seen the Browning-Ferris NLRB case? I know you’re not a labor lawyer, but it’s got interesting applications fpr car dealerships and other franchisees.

http://staghounds.kinja.com/is-every-u-s-b…

CrankyOldMan > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 12:37

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In WA - the title has a tab that you remove when the car is sold — the buyer gets the title and the seller gets the tab. This tab contains the sales price, buyers license number, address, and dated signature.

The DMV receives this form - the seller is supposed to mail it in, or the seller goes online and enters the info (but keeps the document). The DMV states that the buyer has 5 days to complete the transfer of title.

The process is pretty well thought through - it’s designed to protect the seller and let the state go after the buyer - because the buyer needs to pay the sales and use tax (nearly 10%!). The process is also designed to prevent curbstoning - but that is still possible if the seller doesn’t complete the paperwork properly.

In recent years the DMV has stopped using the sales price from the sale as the basis for the sales tax - folks lied to reduce the nearly 10% tax burden. Now they use book values to establish a price (with an allowance window) - or if the sale is notarized I think you can establish a lower sales price.

I completely agree that doing a transfer at the DMV - or one the licensed independent offices may provide more piece of mind - but the system in WA is quite good enough.

SteveLehto > staghounds 08/30/2015 at 12:43

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Hadn’t seen that. It IS interesting.

SteveLehto > CrankyOldMan 08/30/2015 at 12:46

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I had heard that - also about CA. But then I heard from the guy who got sued. I am curious as to what happens - say - if the buyer is driving from your house back to his and he runs someone over. Is that tab in your hand an absolute bar to a suit?

This stuff varies from state to state. Amazingly, Michigan’s Secretary of State’s offices recommend you go in and do it live with all parties and most branches aren’t that bad anymore. I feel much more comfortable doing it that way. If the buyer signs the form that is left with you, I suppose that is good for something.

I know that in FLA the seller fills out a form and sends it in. Again, the buyer has to be honest and do what he/she is supposed to do.

His Stigness > CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) 08/30/2015 at 13:19

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MAKE AN APPOINTMENT!!! It never fails to amaze me that every one in California that bitches about the dmv either never make an appointment and wait forever, or they treat the dmv workers like shit, of both. I’ve gone to dmv so many times over the years and am in and out in minutes, without an issue. Why, because I make an appointment and I’m nice to the people.

His Stigness > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 13:25

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I know you don’t practice in California, but do you know what the point of that slip is this then? If you’re not released from liability why even “notify” dmv with the paper, if they don’t “belive” you till the title is transfered? That makes no sense to me.

And what about the buyer, do you have any incentive to transfer the title as soon as possible; is there any liability on your part until the title is transfered? Besides the car being steel that is, now that I think about it.

SteveLehto > His Stigness 08/30/2015 at 14:02

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I went to lawschool in CA and lived there for a few years (so I got to deal with the DMV and so on). The point of the online thing is to HELP with the transaction. But look at it from the other perspectives: A car is in an accident. Someone goes to see who the owner is. The state shows the SELLER is the owner. But there is an indication that the seller claims to have sold it to BUYER. Interestingly, BUYER was driving the car but had never finished the title work.

So, you - as the victim - just assume that the buyer is the actual owner or might you worry that something is going on here? How do you find out? Sue ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out.

CA is better than other states (in that the notification to the state must have some value) but it will not shield you from lawsuits the way a properly transferred title will. (For example: I sell a car in MICH and go with the BUYER to the Secretary of State’s Office. I watch as he fills out the title application and files it. When we walk out, I know that if anyone runs a title search on that car, it will show the BUYER as the titled owner and ME/SELLER as the previous owner.

A lawsuit against me as the OWNER would be frivolous. A lawsuit against the SELLER in the first paragraph would not be frivolous. It might be subject to dismissal later but it would, in theory, be grounded in facts.

Tohru > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 14:03

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I’d have to call WI DMV to see if it’s even something I can do at the location. I’ve never heard of it done here.

SteveLehto > Tohru 08/30/2015 at 14:15

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Just out of curiosity - instead of just racking up parking tickets, what if the guy had plowed the car into a group of children and then fled on foot?

Again, it wouldn’t have been you but you can see how fun that would have been for you.

Tohru > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 15:36

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No, I follow ya. All I’d be able to do is present my side of things and put blind faith that the justice system would work as it’s supposed to.

To be fair, the same could be said about the vehicles I’ve purchased - I could buy it, do a daring daylight bank robbery, and ditch the car - taking all the paperwork with me and burning it. There’d be nothing on file saying I bought it - most of the cars I bought private-party the seller didn’t even do a bill of sale.

SteveLehto > Tohru 08/30/2015 at 15:54

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Yes, people ignore my advice on both ends of the equation!

AeroStang > SteveLehto 08/30/2015 at 22:39

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Nothing of value to say, but thank you. You know why :)

SteveLehto > AeroStang 08/30/2015 at 22:43

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Thanks. I always appreciate the feedback.

Eberle-Hills-Cop > SteveLehto 09/02/2015 at 12:52

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What about vehicles without titles? Here in NH they don’t issue titles for anything older than 1999.

SteveLehto > Eberle-Hills-Cop 09/02/2015 at 12:54

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Well, you do what you can. How does the state know who owns those cars then?

Ike B > SteveLehto 09/02/2015 at 13:34

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Steve, this makes me wonder about my situation as the buyer of a car with a seller who wasn’t the titled owner. I’ve bought cars like this before, where the guy I bought it from had the car, had a signed title from a previous owner, but not specified to a buyer, so the title was still open to any new buyer. Usually these guys were flipping cars and didn’t want to pay taxes on it.

I bought a car from a guy like that recently, and due to a minor mistake on filling out the rest of the title, the DMV now wants a bill of sale form from the woman whose name is on the signed title.

I found this woman’s contact info, and she seemed nice at first, but then turned into a nightmare. She’s flipped between seeming amicable, to calling this whole thing “bullshit” that she doesn’t want to deal with, to dropping off the face of the planet, and she’s done this twice in the last few months. I have other project cars, so I just put it on a mental back burner then approach her later, hoping she’s cooled down.

All this over five minutes of her filling out the form and faxing or emailing it back to me. It’s insane. No idea what my recourse is at this point, but needless to say my H-bomb is threatening her with abandoning the car where she would be liable for any tickets, towing, impound and fees they hit her with. Ideas?

SteveLehto > Ike B 09/02/2015 at 13:35

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That’s the danger of people who skip titles. For all you knew, the car was stolen. You can’t get a hold of the guy you bought it from?

Eberle-Hills-Cop > SteveLehto 09/02/2015 at 13:36

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Honor system? They seem to rely on registrations. For example, to register one of said title exempt cars you only need a bill of sale & an old registration for the vehicle.

SteveLehto > Eberle-Hills-Cop 09/02/2015 at 13:37

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That must be a nightmare when people fight over who owns a car.

I guess get a bill of sale with notarized signatures all around. Assuming your state has those . . .

Ike B > SteveLehto 09/02/2015 at 13:39

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Well I probably can but his name isn’t tied to the car at all, so I figured he didn’t matter. Car definitely not stolen though.

SteveLehto > Ike B 09/02/2015 at 13:40

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But if he dealt with the woman one time, maybe he can again. At the very least, try him. Seems like he ought to help.

Eberle-Hills-Cop > SteveLehto 09/02/2015 at 13:44

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When I sold my volvo I did it at a notary office because I grew up in Massachusetts (land of anal registration) and the whole no title thing seemed shady to me. New Hampshire is a weird place.

DrScientist > Fiveohfour 09/02/2015 at 14:10

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if youre buying a car out of state, this is also a bit of a hassle, if not impossible.

i’ve bought all three of my cars from individual sellers in different states from where i registered the cars. luckily i’m a trustworthy guy and had each re-titled (on my own) in my state of residence.

julienjj > SteveLehto 09/03/2015 at 11:11

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My friend was stupid enough to do that. He even let the guy go with his license plate. The dude never registered the car and was known by the local police force to be doing that to multiple people. My friend noticed when he started receiving unpaid toll letters and photo radar fines. It took almost a year to fix the problem in court and seize back the car where he almost had his license suspended due to the unpaid fines.

AZRCD > SteveLehto 09/03/2015 at 11:14

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I know you don’t operate in NY and I’m sure, nay, know you’ll say the only way to be positive is to be at the DMV when the new owner applies for the title. However, I’ve always been told (possibly incorrectly) that as long as you are keeping the plates (which is what you’d do in NY, they are your plates,) and remove the reg. sticker from the windshield then you are okay. Obviously you are still the owner on the title, and I know this all comes down to state laws, but you have to wonder if someone gets into an accident with a car that has either no plates or plates not registered to that VIN and no reg. sticker, if that will have any bearing on liability. (Probably, depending on local laws, not.)

SteveLehto > AZRCD 09/03/2015 at 11:19

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This does vary from state to state. You’re probably fine as you describe. It is in the states where you can do more - then it is worthwhile to do it.

AZRCD > SteveLehto 09/03/2015 at 11:48

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“Sue ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out.”

Words to live by!

SteveLehto > AZRCD 09/03/2015 at 11:50

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It’s a variation on a timeless classic.

AZRCD > SteveLehto 09/03/2015 at 11:54

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As a sailor (as in wind powered water vessels,) there’s a version about not reeefing, “We raised ‘em up, let God bring ‘em down, (which happens sometimes.)*” *Opional.

Scott > SteveLehto 09/09/2015 at 17:48

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Not sure if you can answer this but just wondering about the case of consignment? I typically do not have the time to deal with sellers directly, so I often take my car to a dealer that will do consignment. Most the time I get a few phone calls from the dealer with offers, I chose if I want to accept or not. Once I accept an offer I run to the dealer with my tittle, sign it in front of him. I get my money for the sale and leave happy. I am particularly interested as I have a vehicle I will likely be selling in a couple months.

Now I am wondering since the consigner is essentially acting as an agent to sell on my behalf, but I am still the seller should I be concerned about the buyer not registering the vehicle. Would a consigner likely make certain on my behalf that the buyer registers the vehicle? Or would he just hand over the tittle and be happy to take his share? I would think he would want to make certain everything is done right to avoid getting drawn into a potential lawsuit. But I am not so naïve that I am going to trust someone just because they own a business offering a service.

SteveLehto > Scott 09/09/2015 at 18:15

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Is the consignor a licensed dealer?

Scott > SteveLehto 09/09/2015 at 18:22

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Yes

SteveLehto > Scott 09/09/2015 at 19:07

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Don’t they do the titlework themselves? Many dealers do but I don’t know about consignments.

Scott > SteveLehto 09/09/2015 at 19:34

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Not sure, kind of what I am asking, and why I figured you might not really know, since it’s probably more about their procedures. All I know is that they have me sign the title and give it to them once the car is sold. They don’t want me to give it to them before they sell it in case they are unable to sell it. What they do with it after that I do not know, I assume the buyer signs the title, but after reading your article this has me worried about what exactly happens after I leave with my money. Probably questions I'll need to ask in the future.

Britt > SteveLehto 09/10/2015 at 12:54

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Whenever a lawyer is willing to hand out free information (NOT LEGAL ADVICE) one should listen. Lawyers paid a lot of money, spent a lot of time, learning about the law. They (probably) struggled and had a hard time understanding some parts of it (like the little old lady who got killed for hitting a young man with her umbrella, and he was found innocent of murder because he was responding to her armed attack with his bare hands), so their knowledge is hard-earned.

Pay attention, listen well, and then if you decide you want legal advice, find yourself a good lawyer to talk to. But when you get something from someone for free... be happy and pay attention!

Scott > SteveLehto 10/27/2015 at 13:48

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I was just thinking about this article as I will be getting ready to sell a travel trailer soon. In thinking about this post, it I remembered that when I went to sell my first car my dad made a big deal about be sure to keep the plates. It never occurred to my why he said that. Every vehicle I have sold has been sold in either Germany or MT. In Germany when you sell your vehicle you take your plates in to the equivalent of the DMV and show them or have them destroy the registration tag so the plates cannot be used. In MT you keep you plates and you can either put them on another vehicle after changing the registration or just not use them. Not sure how this works in other states but it seems to me that someone cannot get new plates or temporary tags without first Titling the vehicle in their name. I suppose someone could risk driving around without plates or put some other plates on but I have to image that is not going to work for very long. As soon as the first police officer is behind you and runs your plates and see that it is for a different vehicle your getting pulled over. I realize that this is still not as safe as going to the DMV as you suggest, but it does seem like it makes it a lot more difficult or risky for the new owner to not register the vehicle. Also what about someone from another State buying the car. I really do not want to travel to anther state so I can verify they are registering it in their home state.